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蔡英文接受《华盛顿邮报》专访全文  

2016-07-22 10:20:29|  分类: 关注社会 |  标签: |举报 |字号 订阅

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蔡英文:北京须尊重台湾民主意愿

蔡英文接受华盛顿邮报专访:北京须尊重台湾民意 - 刘植荣 - 刘植荣的博客

蔡英文2016718接受《华盛顿邮报》The Washington Post资深副主编Lally Weymouth来台专访,采访内容近日公布,主要聚焦于及九二共识、两岸关系、南海仲裁与中国大陆领导人习近平等议题,访谈全文如下:

问:您对习近平的印象如何? 

总统:就像我在CSIS讲过的,对于习近平主席能够勇敢地采取措施进行反贪腐的这件事情,我觉得在中国大陆发展的进程上,这是很重要的一件事情,我也非常期待他在处理两岸关系上面,能够有更大的弹性,也能够充分认知台湾是一个民主的社会。总统也好,或者政治领导人的决定,是必须要依循民意,所以我也希望他能够体认到台湾是一个民主社会,民意的走向其实是非常重要的。

问:有些学者说,习近平设定了要您同意92共识之期限,这个正确吗?

总统:两岸的问题很多人都很关注,很多人都有他们自己的观察,不过我相信,习近平主席做为一个国家的领导人,他应该有能力能够综合所有的情势,来做一个很好的决定,做一个正确的决定。尤其是台湾已经是一个非常民主的地方,民意的走向其实非常重要,所以设定期限,要求台湾政府违反民意去承受一些对方的条件,其实可能性是不大的,我也相信他们应该会有这样的认知。

问:自您5月下旬就职以来,陆方已经切断台湾与中国大陆之间正式沟通管道,您打算如何处理日常与北京间的关系? 

总统:我们双方之间沟通的管道其实是很多元的,尤其是在这几十年来的发展,双方的交流其实非常多元而且频繁,在交往的过程中,其实也产生很多互相沟通的模式,这些沟通不只是在官方的层次,还包括每一个不同层级,还有民间的沟通,都在整个两岸之间沟通的这种结构里面。我们双方之间立场上的差异,其实在我520的就职演讲里面,我也尽了最大的力量,来让双方的立场可以缩小差距,我也相信在某种程度,中国大陆方面也会认知到520讲话里面的善意。

问:但看来似并非如此。中国大陆国务院台湾办公室表示,您的就职演说是「一个未完成的答卷」,迄今并无公开的迹象显示他们肯定您的立场。而您身为总统,是否和中国大陆政府的对口有接触?

总统:就像我讲的,现在所暂停的是两会的管道、陆委会与国台办的管道,这在官方的意义或许是存在的,但问题是长久以来,双方之间管道确实是很多元的,现在看到的两会,也就是海基会与海协会两会的沟通体制,只是整个多元管道中间的一部分。当我讲到多元,其实它是有多层次的面向,不仅是政府在交流的过程中,很多政府机关跟他们在中国大陆的对口,也都有一定程度相互通讯息与交换意见的机制。I’m saying different levels of the government have different ways of communicating with their counterparts in China.(我政府各层级都有和中国大陆对口机构联系的管道)我不能在这个阶段进入太多细节。

问:您认为您有在缩小台湾与中华人民共和国之间的隔阂吗?

总统:这段时间以来,我们都非常谨慎处理与中国大陆的关系,我们除了不采取挑衅的态度,防止意外的发生之外,也希望透过信息的交流,能够建立起双方的互信。

问:您代表许多较偏向认同「台湾人」,而不是「中国人」的台湾年轻一代,他们比老一辈更支持独立。身为总统,您要如何维持两岸关系的稳定,但同时也要让年轻的选民满意,您如何取得平衡?

总统:It is a fact that different generations, and different people of different ethnic origins, they have different views on China. But they all agree on one thing: that is democracy.(事实上不同世代和不同族群的民众对中国大陆会有不同的看法。但是,有一件事情,他们的意见一致,那就是民主。)

问:美国自1979年之后改承认「中华人民共和国」(首都在北京)代表「中国」,而将中华民国的台湾(首都在台北)视为一个「实体」(entity),您觉得这是公平的吗?

总统:我想我不太清楚美国在讲这个字- “entity”的时候,它的意思是什么,但是这个 “entity"有很多可以诠释的空间。以台湾来讲,我们有一个完整的政府跟民主的机制,我们有军队,我们是一个可以为自己做决定的国家。所以,或许美国或者其它国家有不同的想法或是不同的角度,但从我们来看,其实绝大多数的台湾人觉得我们确实是一个国家。

问:没有被国际社会承认,您是否觉得不公平?

总统:It is indeed unfair。(这确实是不太公平)

问:美国读者与我都难以理解,身为台湾总统,您只被允许在美过境停留48小时。

总统:It is indeed. (的确如此。)

问:有报导指出,来自中国大陆的观光客减少了,这会伤害台湾的观光产业吗?

总统:我们是看到有一些在量上面的减少,但是整体而言,对我们观光产业有多大的冲击,我们还在评估当中。不过整体来说,我们也希望我们观光客的来源是多元的。所以,我们也会持续强化对于其它来源观光客的争取,而且我们的观光产业可以发展出适应不同来源的观光客,能够更多元,而且更能够适应不同的观光客。

问:中国大陆如果执意的话,可能会对台湾施加更多压力,他们会威胁破坏你们与邦交国的关系并吓跑他们,您会担心这个吗?

总统:关于经济的手段,我不是指他们(中国大陆)现在正在做,但如果他们用经济手段加压力的话,其实中国大陆也应该想象他们要付出的代价,就是今天中国大陆可以这样对台湾的话,它也可以对其他周边的国家。所以,我相信很多周边的国家都会很仔细地观察中国大陆会不会对台湾以经济的手段来加压,中国大陆如果要成为一个在这个区域是受尊敬的国家,我相信他们会小心地考虑这件事。

问:所以您认为台湾与邦交国的关系会继续维持吗?

总统:我们会尽力维持我们的邦交国,也希望跟我们邦交国发展出一种互惠的关系,也就是在经济发展、社会发展、文化及教育上的交流都能持续强化,让他们真心感受到与中华民国维持邦交是一件有意义且有帮助的事情。

问:您的前任马总统曾计划向美国购买66F16战机,尽管有47位美国参议员致函支持,但最后都没有结果,您会继续提出此项请求吗?

总统:我们会持续评估国防的需求,持续向美国提出军事合作计划,所以这些方面我们会持续与美方来进行沟通,同时也会对防卫需求做更准确的评估。在这个阶段,我们的需求主要还是在水面舰、潜艇、防空系统及网络安全,这些方面我们有比较强的需求。

问:马前总统之前也希望向美国购买柴电潜舰,但未竟其功,您会再重复此诉求吗?

总统:In three areas our needs are more urgent, there are surface ships and submarines, air-defense and cyber-security areas. In submarines, we are trying to develop our own, to develop indigenous capabilities.(在三个领域,我们的需求较急迫,如水面舰和潜水艇、空防和网络安全领域。在潜水艇方面,我们正尝试着开发自己的潜艇,发展本国的能力。)

 

问:美国总统候选人柯琳顿(Hillary Clinton)与川普(Donald Trump),哪一位当选对台湾比较好?

总统:作为一个其它国家政府的领导人,我们不方便对美国总统选举做过多的评论。不过我们也希望,无论哪一位当选美国总统,我们都能够持续现在的关系,而且在现在的关系上,发展下一阶段更紧密且互惠的关系。

问:您施政的焦点是内政,像是提高薪资以及增加休假的时间,但是目前台湾经济成长率低于1%,您如何在增强经济发展的同时,亦增加社会福利呢?

总统:我想这些事情,不是一个药方可以解决所有问题,其实台湾的经济需要做结构性的调整。也就是我们新的经济发展模式是走向以创新研发来让我国的产业可以进到下一个阶段、下一个时代。这跟以往我们以制造、效率,也就是成本驱动的成长模式是不一样。因此我国在下一个世代的经济产业规划上非常强调创新与研发,而台湾刚好是一个适合创新与研发的地方,因为我们有很多好的产业基础,也有很多好的研发人才。因此只要我国在这里着力够深,我们会用几个主要的产业来带动整个台湾产业的转型,而这几个主要的产业包括生技、绿能、智慧机械、IOT的产业及国防产业。

问:中国大陆不是你们第一大贸易伙伴吗?

总统:到现在为止还是,但问题是因为两方的经济互补性已经开始在降低、而竞争性已经在加强,所以我们对于双方的经济与贸易关系必须做一个重新检讨,务必要使双方的经贸关系是一个相辅相成且互利的关系,而不是一个过度竞争的情况。 The two economies in the past had a high degree of complementarity, and since we had the ability to organize a manufacturing process, and then we move our manufacturing to the ability to China to make best use of their labor. And now the situation is very different. I mean, the labor cost is increasing and China has their own capability.(过去两岸经济有高度的互补性,而我们拥有制造业能力,并转往对岸,善用他们的劳力。而今非昔比,对岸劳力成本增加,且已具备制造能力了。)

问:所以中国大陆变成台湾的竞争对手?

总统:They are more and more our competitors.(他们越来越是我们的竞争对手了。)

问:我看到您对海牙常设仲裁庭有关南海仲裁结果表示失望,该仲裁将台湾声索的太平岛认定为「礁」,而非「岛屿」,因此不能享有200浬专属经济海域,您会遵守仲裁庭的判断吗?

总统:我们已经公开声明,这个仲裁的决定有损于台湾的利益,所以我们不能够接受,我们也认为这个裁判对台湾没有法律约束力。主要有几个原因,第一个是因为我们是一个重要的利益相关方,但是我们没有被邀请参与整个仲裁的程序。第二,我们对于被称为「The Taiwan Authority of China」不能接受。第三,在这个地区,我们拥有主权的太平岛,在裁决中被认为是一个「礁」而不是「岛」,这是违反我们长期以来的主张,我们也认为它确实是一个岛。在这里我想利用这个机会,把台湾政府对南海争端的立场做一个说明。第一,当然是有关南海争端应该依据国际法与海洋法,包括《联合国海洋法公约》,用和平的方式来解决。第二,我们主张台湾应该要纳入多边争端解决的机制。第三,在这个地区的相关国家有义务维护南海的航行与飞越自由。第四,中华民国主张以「搁置争议、共同开发」的方式处理南海争议。我们期待相关国家能秉持相同方式进行协商,来和平解决这个争端。

问:您是亚洲地区首位并非出自于政治世家的女性总统,您如何做到的?

总统:我觉得我的出现其实跟台湾的民主发展很有关系,也就是说,台湾民主发展的过程是一个渐进、由下而上的过程。所以台湾的新世代领导人其实都来自民间或是跟基层有比较强的连结的政党。

问:在男性主导的社会里,女性要爬升到领导人的地位一定很难。 

总统:Yes to a certain extent, but I think the society and our democracy is mature enough to appreciate the value of the individual politicians. They place emphasis on the quality and the value of individual politicians rather than their gender. So of course, some people will find it fashionable to find a woman leader, but I think the reason why people chose me as leader of this country was because of my policy, my values, suit the needs of Taiwan today.(某种程度上是,但我认为我们的社会和民主已够成熟,能欣赏个别政治人物的价值。他们重视个别政治人物的质量和价值胜过性别。所以,当然,某些人会觉得找个女性领导人很时尚,但我觉得人民选我当这个国家的领导人,是因为我的政策、我的价值符合现今的台湾需要。)

Meaning that we represent people who want to have change in this society, after years and decades this place has been dominated by a single party, with the exception of 2000-2008, but over the last few decades, all dominated by the KMT. The whole social structure and values were shaped by this regime, KMT government, over the years. But people now realize that we’re in a different situation now, we want to move forward, we have to restructure ourselves, and redefine the current values. So they want the place to be more democratic. They want this place to place more emphasis on human rights and transparency, in terms of government decision-making and public participation in the government’s decision-making process. And essentially people want to participate, they want to have a voice in the major decisions of the government. So this is somehow different from the way the government conducted business since the days when this place was an authoritarian place.
(我们代表社会上渴望改变的人民。这片土地除了2000年到2008年以外,数十年来均被单一政党,即国民党所主导,整个社会结构及价值都由这个政权形塑而成。如今人民了解我们的环境已经不同,我们想要向前行,我们想要进行重整,重行定义目前的价值。人民想要更为民主的环境,在政府决策过程中,民众能参与官方决策,并更重视人权及透明度。本质上来说,人民想要在政府重大决策中,能参与其中并发声。这与过去这片土地是威权统治、由政府主导的情境,有些许不同。) 

问:国民党长期进行军事统治? 

总统:So the expectation of the people is very different. They want democracy, they want public participation, they want transparency, they want to have fair elections, they want to have sound judicial system, not too much interfered by politics. They want to have an effective judicial system to settle whatever disputes that people may have in their daily lives so they want to have a good social safety net to protect them in case they fell in a very competitive society. (现在人民的期待有很大的不同,他们想要民主、民众参与的机会与透明度,以及公平的选举;他们想要有完善的司法体制,不要有太多的政治干预;他们想要有效的司法体制,以处理日常生活遇到的争议,拥有妥善的安全网来保障他们,以防在竞争剧烈的社会中陷入困顿。)

蔡英文接受《华盛顿邮报》专访全文 - 刘植荣 - 刘植荣的博客

以下是蔡英文接受《华盛顿邮报》专访原文:

Taiwanese President Tsai Ing-wen: Beijing must respect our democratic will

Lally Weymouth is a senior associate editor at The Washington Post.

Tsai Ing-wen is the first woman to be elected president of the small island of Taiwan, a close U.S. ally but also a potential flash point, because Beijing asserts that Taiwan belongs to the People’s Republic of China and can never be independent. Quite a few Taiwanese in Tsai’s party see it differently. Although China and Taiwan have been able to paper over their differences to date, tensions have been mounting since Tsai’s inauguration, when she did not restate the so-called ’92 consensus, in which Taipei and Beijing agreed that they are part of “one China” — but with different interpretations. This week, The Washington Post’s Lally Weymouth visited Tsai’s office for the president’s first interview since taking office. Edited excerpts follow:

Q: What is your impression of Chinese President Xi Jinping?

A: I think that Chairman Xi’s courage tackling corruption is an important matter in the development of Chinese society. I also look forward to him showing a bit more flexibility in dealing with cross-strait relations. I hope that he can appreciate that Taiwan is a democratic society in which the leader has to follow the will of the people.

Q: Some academics say Xi has a certain deadline by which he wants you to agree to the ’92 consensus. Is that right?

A: It isn’t likely that the government of Taiwan will accept a deadline for conditions that are against the will of the people.

Q: Since your inauguration in late May, the Chinese have cut off the official channel that was used to communicate between Taiwan and the mainland. How do you plan to handle day-to-day relations with Beijing?

A: We have always had diverse channels of communication across the strait. These include not just official communications but also people-to-people contacts. .?.?. There are differences between the positions of the two sides of the strait. In Taiwan, we have done our best to minimize that gap. I believe that the Chinese realize the goodwill we have put forth at the inauguration.

Q: It doesn’t seem that way. I think it was China’s Taiwan Affairs Office, part of the State Council, which said that your speech was “an incomplete exam.” There is no public indication that they appreciated your position. Are you, the president, in touch with your counterparts in the Chinese government?

A: Different levels of the government have different ways of communicating with their counterparts in China. At this stage, I cannot go into too much detail.

Q: Do you feel you are closing the gap between Taiwan and the People’s Republic of China?

A: Over this past period we have handled relations with China very carefully. We do not take provocative measures, we make sure that there are no surprises, and we hope that through channels of communication, we can gradually build up trust.

Q: You represent many of the youth who think of themselves as being Taiwanese, not Chinese. They are more pro-independence than the older generation. As president, you want to maintain cross-strait relations for stability, but at the same time, you must keep your followers happy. How do you balance these factors?

A: Different generations and people of different ethnic origins have different views on China. But they all agree on one thing. That is democracy.

Q: Is it fair that Washington has considered Taiwan an entity, not a country, since 1979, when the United States changed sides and recognized the People’s Republic of China (with its capital in Beijing) — in lieu of the Republic of China in Taiwan (with its capital in Taipei) — as China?

A: I am not clear what the U.S. means when they use the term “entity.” For us here in Taiwan, we believe that we are a country, a democratic country.

Q: So isn’t it unfair that Taiwan is not recognized in the world?

A: It is indeed unfair.

Q: American readers would find it hard to understand that you, as a Taiwanese president, are only allowed to come to the United States for 48 hours, and then only if it is a transit stop.

A: Indeed.

Q: There has reportedly been a drop-off in tourists from the mainland. Will that hurt your tourist industry?

A: We hope to have a more diverse source of tourists.

Q: China could bring more pressure on Taiwan if it chose to. They could frighten away your diplomatic allies by threatening to weaken your bonds with them. Are you worried about that?

A: If they do take economic measures to apply pressure to Taiwan, they will have to think about the price that they are going to pay. Because the surrounding countries will be looking very carefully at what measures China will take against Taiwan.

Q: So you think as far as your alliances go, they will stay as they are today?

A: We will do everything we can do to maintain those relations and make sure that our diplomatic allies feel that having diplomatic relations with Taiwan is worthwhile.

Q: Your predecessor, President Ma Ying-jeou, wanted to buy 66 F-16s from the United States. Even though 47 senators wrote in support of his request, nothing happened. Do you intend to repeat that request?

A: At the current stage what we need are surface ships, submarines and air defense systems, as well as defensive capabilities in terms of cybersecurity.

Q: I think Ma also asked for diesel submarines and got nowhere. Will you repeat that request?

A: We are trying to develop our own [submarines].

Q: When it comes to the U.S. election, Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump — who would be better for Taiwan?

A: As the leader of a different country, it is not very wise for us to comment on the presidential election in the U.S.

Q: I understand that the focus of your program is domestic — that you want to raise wages, to give people more time off. But with a growth rate under 1 percent, how can you spur the economy while delivering increased social services?

A: There is no panacea for this. I think Taiwan’s economy needs an overall structural readjustment. Our new model focuses on innovation and research. This is different from our growth model in the past, which was centered on the manufacturing industry.

Q: Isn’t China your No. 1 trading partner?

A: China is still our largest trading partner; however, complementarity between our economies is decreasing. We had the ability to organize a manufacturing process, and then we moved our manufacturing capability to China to make use of their labor pool. But now the situation is very different. [Chinese] labor costs are increasing, and China has their own capability.

Q: So China has become a competitor of Taiwan?

A: They are more and more our competitors.

Q: I saw that you expressed disappointment over the ruling by the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague on the South China Sea. It held that Taiping Island, which you claim as part of Taiwan, is a rock, not an island, and thus cannot enjoy an exclusive economic zone. Will you abide by the ruling?

A: We will not accept their decision. There are a couple of reasons for that. Taiwan is an important interested party in this case, but we were not invited to participate in the proceedings. Secondly, we found it unacceptable that we were referred to as the Taiwan Authority of China. The third reason is that [Taiping Island really is] an island.

Q: You are the first woman in Asia who does not come from a political family to be elected president of a country. How did you do it?

A: I think that my emergence as a leader is closely related to the development of Taiwan’s democracy. Taiwan’s democracy was a gradual development. It was done from the bottom up. Therefore a lot of the more successful political leaders come from civil society, those that are closer to the grass-roots level of the public.

Q: It must have been difficult to be a woman leader in such a male-dominated society.

A: Yes, to a certain extent. But I think that the society and our democracy are mature enough to place emphasis on the quality and the value of the individual politician, rather than their gender. Some people will find it fashionable to have a woman leader, but I think the reason people chose me as the leader of this country is because my policies and my values suit the needs of Taiwan today. We represent people who want to have change in the society. For years, this place has been dominated politically by a single party, the Kuomintang. People now want the place to be more democratic. They want to place more emphasis on human rights and transparency in terms of government decision-making. This is different from the way the government conducted business in the days when this was pretty much an authoritarian place.

Q: The KMT had a long military rule.

A: So the expectation of the people is very different. They want democracy, they want public participation, they want transparency, they want to have fair elections, they want to have sound judicial system, not too much interfered by politics. They want to have an effective judicial system to settle whatever disputes that people may have in their daily lives so they want to have a good social safety net to protect them in case they fell in a very competitive society. 

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